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148615-so-dominion-and-exiles
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content ---- ---- Pun intended? :P | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Edited January 1, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- The Aurin were oblivious of the entire war outside of their bubble/planet and Arwick was the main one who objected to helping them, upon meeting them. Because he felt that there was some dark shadow cast over them. (Which was the Dominion chasing them.) Not because he/the Aurin knew the Dominion was following them. They had no way of knowing. Because prior to Dorian touching down on the planet, they had never seen nor come in contact with, a single being outside of Arboria before. And the Exiles didn't even mention the Dominion either. So the Aurin were completely in the dark, when it came to whom they were helping. They were just being their normal hospitable selves. The Dominion isn't out to destroy the galaxy, they're just out to make it all fall under their banner. By force, if necessary. Much like the Eldan did to them, initially. Edited January 1, 2016 by Dharnell | |} ---- I agree with everything else you've mentioned in this thread Dharnell, but this just isn't true. Arwick was the first consort and TOP advisor to the Queen, and he knew the Exiles were bad business. We can't suggest the Aurin were oblivious. Clearly the "Aurin" as a group, had members who knew aiding the Exiles was going to be trouble. Other Aurin groups agreed, and we have lore that supports the divisive issue in Aurin culture that aiding the Exiles was. at least a portion of the Aurin did not agree with the queen. Some disagreed so much they ignored the evac and stayed, others took the evac and abandoned the queen. This isn't a black and white "they didn't know". The Aurin, as feral as they may have been, were NOT stupid. It's Myala's character that is Naive, not all Aurin. The Dominion doesn't care if the whole galaxy is "under their banner", their goal is uniting the galaxy in a shared peace and order. when they lost to the Granok they left them be, they don't force the Ekose, the Grund, the Lopp, or any other species to fall "under their banner". They might prefer it, but they don't force it. The Eldan didn't force the cassians to join, the Cassians willingly did, because the technology the Eldan were promising completely revolutionized their way of life. It gave them control of weather, cured horrific injury... the quality of life enhancement they promised was beyond anything we have an analogue for in our world. Pheydra (and the Widow) care about control, the Exiles and Dominon do not. The Dominion wan'ts law and order, the Exiles don't like their laws or their justice. | |} ---- ---- There is no way the Exile fleet could resupply and refuel on Arboria with NO Aurin knowing about the Dominion. The very first thing that they would ask is "what brings you here" and unless you are going to suggest the Exiles lied (which would put the blame for the ravaging of Arboria on the Exiles) then they would have responded with "The Dominion" The Eldan didn't threaten anyone. You're reffering to Axis Pheydra's statements after displaying Eldan weather control. The Cassians would have given Toria regardless, Pheydra just always happens to add subtly threatening language to her speeches... because she is cold and calculating. The Eldan would never have allowed the destruction of the Cassians, as they wanted them to build their Empire | |} ---- Just wanna add this blurb too. The Cassians didn't consent so much as bow to someone who clearly could've annihilated them. Their state of mind and willingness are speculation, but it's questionable at best that they just followed along given this fun dialog: And don't get me wrong, I wish the Dominion weren't so unapologetically cruel because it negatively affects them for people who wanna play the faction. But it sits pretty heavily presented in the lore that they absolutely are given their submit or die attitude to just about everything, with some few odd exceptions for reasons we don't know yet (like the aforementioned races.) Edited January 1, 2016 by Bloodrose | |} ---- Edited January 1, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- His station as her first consort and having "a bad feeling" doesn't mean that he actually knew what their situation was. It wasn't clairvoyance or anything. He also could have had the same exact bad feeling about them and could have been wrong, if they weren't being chased. Because that's just all it was, just "a gut feeling". Which are often wrong with people. The only big divisive issue with "the Aurin and the Exiles" was when it came down to the moment of abandoning Arboria. As there's been nothing stated in the lore that the Aurin, after that initial meeting and "bad vibes" issue, further refused the Exiles. Not even with Arwick. When they fled the Reapers, they all couldn't fit on the excape ships, so some opted to stay and defend Arboria. The ones who were forced to leave the planet, and were disgruntled enough to rebel, were the ones to actually become "The Thorns." And on a semi-related point, even those ones who attack other Aurin/Exiles have even stated that they haven't and won't fully abandon the Queen. There's nothing, absolutely nothing in the lore that states that they knew of anything outside of Arboria, prior to Dorian. As he was their first non-Arborian encounter. And you're wrong. The Eldan presented the Cassians with the same exact ultimatum that the Dominion gives on an almost regular basis. "Give us Tresayne to engage in our Luminai Project or we'll effing kill you ALL." http://wildstaronline.wikia.com/wiki/Tresayne_Toria That was the same ultimatum that they gave to the Murgh in Deradune. Sure it didn't work out for them, but they still gave it. The other groups they could just not have decided to approach yet, as being in the Dominion. Outside of the Lopp, which was a failed endeavor, that was dropped (story-telling wise) without even a followup. They also don't go back to Gnox because it was a costly endeavor. Edited January 1, 2016 by Dharnell | |} ---- ---- P.S. Read the last chapter in the Rise of the Cassians. Dominus returns and again gives the Cassians a choice. He doesn't threaten extermination, he doesn't threaten harm. He displays the transcendential technology of the Eldan and heals a crippled noble. The Eldan, and the first emperor, half human half Eldan, had no use for threats of extermination as the Mechari so enjoy. The Eldan had no intention of letting the Cassians be destroyed, the Mechari just get a bit overzealous. Remember Mechari aren't robots. They are living, sentient, sapient, and free willed beings housed in mechanical bodies. They don't need to be authorized or programmed to say or act in any particular way. Edited January 1, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Edited January 1, 2016 by Dharnell | |} ---- |} P.S. This is a part of the TFBTF titled "Attack of the Planet Reapers": Myala:"That's sweet," said the queen, "But we have to wait here. The Exiles will be here soon." Arwick: "They're more than three hours late," he growled. "And they're the ones that got us into this mess in the first place." Myala: "Arwick," she said, gently but firmly. "Not now." Arwick held his tongue, but they both knew he was right..." Edited January 1, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- http://wildstaronline.wikia.com/wiki/Tresayne_Toria So one snooty cassian mentions if they don't cooperate then military action will result, while the exact same policy is held by the Granok. Neither faction acted on it until AFTER negotations failed. As a Dom player you go to the meeting, they have actual negotiations, but the Falkrin kill the Ambassadors in cold blood. Only THEN is military action initiated. Same with the Granok, only after their efforts at diplomacy fail do they exterminate the Falkrin. Ooooooh! So now all of a sudden, he doesn't matter. How convenient. The one snooty Cassian who is the head of Falkrin Ambassador Unit, that has his orders from the top brass, is instantly dismissed because he doesn't help your argument. The important Cassian ambassador who is ordered to kill the Falkrin if they say no to his offer, as the rule. They were planning on killing them if they failed to assimilate. They went IN to the situation with their murderous intent in their pocket. The Granok on Nexus don't have that same policy. You're making things up AGAIN. Because they don't attack the Lopp after the Lopp refused to side with the Exiles in one of the Exile bases in Malgrave. Nor is there any actual hostility in their response. But going back, the Granok didn't attack the Falkrin after diplomacy failed. They didn't have a CHANCE to be diplomatic. Because the Falkrin attacked and killed both the FCON squad and their civilians without warning. The Falkrin started the entire ordeal and established themselves as enemies right off the bat. You don't kill someone without even talking to them or warning them. That's what the Falkrin did. Dharnell, when we say we're going to bring "democracy" to an "oppressed" or "backward" nation... and then we invade/kill them and force our idealogy on them. How is that different from the Dominion, who believe they are literally chosen by gods (which is strictly speaking, actually TRUE, given the Eldan did ascend to goodhood as the Drusentity for better AND worse) to spread their justice and ideals..... Stop, and think hard about that. Also consider whether the Dominion, with the highest standard of living by far even for its poorest citizens, free education and healthcare for all citizens and upward mobility for those who earn it, is right to believe their ideals are superior to other ideals that other factions hold. This has nothing to do with what I said, and is just a typical Smokescreen Tangent Tactic that you always try to whip out, when you fail to make a point with using the game's canon. Usually with some loosely applicable real world example. Sorry, try that nonsense on someone else. It doesn't work on me. P.S. This is a part of the TFBTF titled "Attack of the Planet Reapers": Myala:"That's sweet," said the queen, "But we have to wait here. The Exiles will be here soon." Arwick: "They're more than three hours late," he growled. "And they're the ones that got us into this mess in the first place." Myala: "Arwick," she said, gently but firmly. "Not now." Arwick held his tongue, but they both knew he was right..." What does that quote prove or disprove? Or were you just being vague and hoping that's applicable to SOMEthing, because we're talking about Aurin in general? You're failing and flailing all over the place. |} | |} ---- ---- Going to have to agree with the eldan's stance on whimsical genocide. They're pragmatic not bloodthirsty, and exterminating the cassians would not further their goals. Most likely Phydra deemed it the most effecient diplomatic strategy, given the overwhelming force on her side. As well as the need for a show of force with how the eldan approached all their subjects in the nexus project as gods. | |} ---- ---- ---- Twas :) | |} ---- I see this so many times, and it really isn't fair. "The Mordesh" aren't responsible for creating the Contagion, Victor Lazarin is responsible for creating the Contagion, with a possible share of blame to whatever Grismaran regulatory agencies assumed the greatest alchemist on the planet had tested his invention properly instead of doing so themselves. Blaming all of the Mordesh for creating the Contagion is kind of like blaming the mothers who took Thalidomide for the disfigurement of their babies, instead of placing the blame where it belongs: with the lazy/greedy drug manufacturers who made and marketed Thalidomide and the lazy/corrupt regulatory agencies who approved it. It can be argued that the rest of the Mordesh are responsible for recklessly exposing the Exiles and Nexus (and other planets the Exiles have visited) to the Contagion, but don't blame all of them for creating it. | |} ---- ---- Actually, I'd love to hear CRB_HernCO justify granting moral equivalence to the phrase "My gods have given me the right to rule the galaxy" and the phrase "I don't want to be subjugated or killed by someone who believes their gods have given them the right to rule the galaxy". | |} ---- No. | |} ---- Goodness yes! This is probably the root of why I just can't bring myself to view the two sides as equally right/wrong - they might both be equally capable of (and culpable for) good and bad actions, but only one side has an overall justification that I can accept as legitimate. As an atheist growing up in a democracy, "we rule by divine right" just sounds like a synonym for "we're the bad guys". | |} ---- Yeah because splitting the player base when the game already has a small population is a GREAT business decision. :rolleyes: | |} ---- Following the orders of your gods doesn't bother me all that much in settings where the gods clearly exist and compete and attract followers. Happens all the time in high fantasy settings. This is not one of those cases. The gods are not at the top of the Dominion, the Luminai--and possibly also the Mechari--are. And neither of them have any legitimate claim to divinity at all, even though their religion and society are explicitly built around that falsehood. Even setting all that aside, you don't need to grow up in a democracy or be an atheist to recognize the difference between people trying to mind their own business and people trying to force their business on everyone else. It's not exactly some subtle distinction here--and it's pretty obvious that the developers are well aware of it, given the game's imagery, lore, and backstory--to say nothing of the effort that went into rewriting the Dominion tutorial to make them look better without actually being better. Not the approach I would've taken, myself. | |} ---- ---- A shame that can I only "like" this post and the post under it, only once. Edited January 2, 2016 by Dharnell | |} ---- To be fair, Protostar (being the biggest and most successful company in the galaxy) could probably hurt the Dominion economically. They'd still lose in the end due to not being a military superpower, but the threat might be enough that Dominion higher-ups think it's not worth the effort. The Ekose might be able to do something similar with their high representation in the galaxy's shipping network. Point on the Lopp and the Grumpel, though. | |} ---- ---- You forgot to mention the ones that aren't competing to be a part of the Dominion and get invaded--like Gnox, Mikros, and Arboria. I bring this up because none of us have any objection to the Dominion picking and choosing which worlds get to join, among those that actively seek to join the Dominion. Those worlds aren't the issue. The ones that are problematic are the planets that were minding their own business when the Dominion came by and invited them to join, surrender, or die. Yeah, just like the UN--except that Secretary-General Myrcalus has the right to simply ignore both his own Security Council and the General Assembly and do pretty much whatever he feels like with one of the galaxy's largest military empires. Oh, and if he dies then his successor will be chosen among only that tiny fraction of the Dominion that are members of the Luminai race. Other than that, it's just like the UN. :rolleyes: | |} ---- ---- That has some interesting implications. Basically, what we have seen is that the only races the Dominion is willing to offer to join or die are those who are incapable of retaliation on an empire level while also offering some kind of advantage to the Dominion. That basically means the Dominion is the bully of the galaxy. Edited January 3, 2016 by Ildur | |} ---- ---- That is an excellent question. Nothing's wrong with it, IMO. But I'd also be interested to hear an answer to that one from those individuals who are so insistent that the Dominion and the Exiles are moral equivalents. Works for me! I agree with you that the Dominion is an interesting faction for all those reasons. I agree with you that you can play a villain in a game and it's just fine, explicitly because it's just a game. I enjoyed my Sith characters in SWTOR. I had fun playing that murderous *cupcake* in GTA. Lots of people have done so. I had an absolute blast in this game's original Dominion tutorial--before they cleaned it up because it was making the heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascists look bad. Of course it matters, because moral positions do not disappear the minute you click the "exit game" button. They extend beyond the confines of the game, as should be clear from how persistently Nazryn and Bytek try to draw parallels between the real world and the game setting. The position "playing the role of someone who lives in a society of heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascists can be a really interesting and compelling story that puts the darker shade of grey to good use!" is about defending dramatic tension and storytelling. The position "the heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascists stomping everyone else into submission aren't the darker side of grey at all!" is about defending heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascism. | |} ---- That's the Dominion's number one problem in a nutshell. It's not that they are evil; it's that some players try to tell us that they aren't. And, judging by that particular change to the tutorial, it's fairly obvious that the Author(s) also agree with that statement. Otherwise, they would have made the Dominion actually better instead of making the Exiles worse. | |} ---- It wouldn't even have to be so ham handed. Simply the revelations regarding the luminai project and the ultimate fate of the nexus project is enough to shake up the dominion enough for them to seriously reconsider their position. Add in the arrival of Myrcalus, the revival of Serrick and Druscera as a mediator between the factions and there's no reason the exiles and dominion couldn't agree to a truce at the very least. The only serious obstacle would be the Chua since most of 'em aren't too big on eldan worship or the church and kind of want to do their own thing. Edited January 3, 2016 by Jelletje | |} ---- ---- I think a Dommie questline where you have to crush Chua dissidents would be epic. Bonus points if you need to crush them because they're tired of being so selfish and greedy and violent and want Chua to get in touch with their inner plushie. :lol: | |} ---- I don't argue as passionately as I used to, but I figure I'll give my two cents since I like making people suffer. :P I don't mind being the bad faction, it's just I feel like people just disregard all the good parts about it. Gasp! I know! We do some good things sometimes. I also really dislike how the Devs say things like this: Source And then any new Lore or Media (looking at you F2P trailer!) they release seems to continue to make the Dominion look worse and worse. I wouldn't even mind if they just admitted it but there's a "good" way to portray an evil faction (like the Sith in SWOTOR) and a way that turns off a lot of players who aren't sure about what faction to choose (like the Dominion). Loremageddon was a great opportunity to add some grey. Like we could have gotten more info about the Brightland Rebellion that wouldn't have made the Dominion look as bad for the whole schism between the two factions. I suppose this sounds crazy, but I feel like the Devs could have spun this in a way where you could sympathize with both sides. Like it wasn't enough for Brightland to secede but he was also the one that attacked first. But nope, they just keep throwing stuff in that makes the Dominion look more evil while continuing to insist that they are both different shades of grey. I guess they released little tidbits that add some grey, but only Dominion sympathizers would believe me anyway, and then the next Loremeageddon will spin it to make the Dominion look bad again. And this all makes me sad, because the Dominion is really interesting. People like to think we're more united but we have so many little factions within that make the whole thing complex. On one end, you have the Chua (as a whole) who you could argue are probably one of the most evil (though I don't see it that way, overpopulation means life is less valued so their behavior makes sense to me). On the other end, you have the Radiant Legion and the Vigilant Church who could now be considered good factions because they defend the weak and take care of all Dominion citizens regardless of station in life. And I just wish that this complexity would pop out more to new players instead of being something you have to focus really hard to see. PS: I like the new Dominion Arkship tutorial. I took screenshots and everything to try and argue that there was a spy on board (which I feel were mostly disregarded by everyone except Dominion sympathizers). So now I can be all crazy and say "MWAHAHAHAHA I WAS RIGHT!" Edited January 3, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- ---- I forgot because it's been a while, but does Mondo try to cure the brainwashed people by zapping them with electricity, fire and mutagens? In groups of three to five? Because even with the brainwashing going on, that doesn't seem to be a particularly moral way of performing a medical experiment or cure. Edited January 3, 2016 by Ildur | |} ---- Nah, it's just one group in the new tutorial, and I think he uses gas. My headcanon is that the events of the old Dominion tutorial started earlier than the events of the new tutorial, but the two finished much closer together. People who played the old tutorial pinpointed a brainwashed patsy for what's-her-name Sweetspur, got to see Mondo's (hilariously unethical) initial experiments in breaking the brainwashing of other civilians, met the Antevian brothers in the church before they headed down to Nexus, checked in with Artemis during her big fancy scheduled press conference in the museum, and had time for some holographic combat training before heading down to their choice of starting area. Somewhen during the old-tutorial players either visiting the church or visiting the museum, the new-tutorial players spotted Sweetspur herself (who had to step in because her brainwashed patsy was no longer around to maintain the brainwashing for her) and helped Mondo deal with Sweetspur's sabotage of his (by then perfected) un-brainwashing process. While the old-tutorial players were going through combat training, the new-tutorial players were chasing Sweetspur through the prisoner areas. Finally, while the old-tutorial players had their final chat with Axis Phydra before talking to Juro Takigurian and choosing a starting area, the new-tutorial players got to meet Artemis Zin at a less-fancy, "spontaneous" press conference in the departures terminal that was probably just an excuse for her to meet the hero of the hour - by catching the actual spy, the new-tutorial players have a bit more hero status than the old-tutorial players, even if they haven't met as many important people as the old-tutorial players. For the Exile tutorial, my headcanon is that they started at the same time and diverged at the medical bay - old-tutorial players searched sabotaged bots for the supplies needed to help Sadie (then helped her and got Dead-eye's thanks) while new-tutorial players focused on finding the Chua saboteurs. While the old-tutorial players were getting a drink and then a mission from Avra, new-tutorial players were heading to the command deck to notify Durek of the situation due to communications breakdowns. At this point, things get fuzzy - players of both tutorials got to see the Dominion ships de-cloaking and attacking despite new-tutorial players getting there first, so I pretend the new-tutorial players actually spent some time helping fix communication systems, but that it was somehow so boring that they repressed their memories of it and remember talking to Durek at the same time as or slightly after the attack (like the old-tutorial players) when it was actually some time before (while the old-tutorial players were getting a drink). After helping clean up the command deck, the paths diverge again - old-tutorial players went to help Belle Walker while new-tutorial players went directly to the greenhouse. The Dominion warbot in the new tutorial seems a lot tougher than it did in the old tutorial, so I imagine that the new-tutorial players actually just started the fight and wore it down, then got rotated out of the fight when the old-tutorial players finished their path missions and arrived to finish it off. Here, things get fuzzy again - new-tutorial players arrive to a much messier, partially blocked-off departures terminal than the old-tutorial players, and yet must leave for Nexus later than the old-tutorial players because old-tutorial players can leave on the same ship as Dead-eye and Sadie while new-tutorial players can only leave after that ship crashes in order to rescue the survivers. I resolve this by assuming the new-tutorial players get stuck helping clean and repair the blocked-off half, and then (since they'd done so before and were already helping fix things) got drafted for more communication system repairs so boring that they repressed the memories. Poor new-tutorial players, getting stuck with all the hard, boring work, while the old-tutorial players benefit from it and get all the fame and networking opportunities... at least the old-tutorial players beat down the wildlife for you before you arrived - there used to be a lot more hostile mobs in the starting areas, but now a lot more of them are neutral. :) | |} ---- Mondo (as entertaining as he is) is one of those characters I consider evil. I like to think he is trying to find a cure, but as you've noticed, he's doing it in the worst way possible. I do find myself curious about what he was trying to do exactly, but they never explain it. | |} ---- Yeah, I really enjoyed the mission arc in Deradune where your character runs face-first into exactly that kind of intrigue with a Luminai from House Chaul. More of that kind of thing, please! | |} ---- I didn't actually forget about those planets. I didn't mention them because they are ever present and they don't speak to the point one way or another. My point was that the picture being painted is that they are out to conquer everybody. Sen by comments about how inconsistant they are about conquering everybody. So, my response is that they are inconsistent about that goal because it is not actually the goal. Not sure if you are intentionally ignoring the purpose of the comparison of if you just didn't follow. So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The entire purpose of my point was not to say the U.N. is an empire the way we know the Dominion is an empire. (Clearly it's not) It was to demonstrate that the empires goal is explicitly not to conqure any and all planets and peoples. As demonstrated by the peoples that it turns down. | |} ---- FWIW, I agree with you that the Dominion's rationale about who they approach with the Join, Surrender, or Die paradigm is more sensible than it was initially given credit for in this thread. Planets that wouldn't be an asset and are too weak to be a threat are simply not worth the effort. Nevertheless, the goal is to impose their will on the entire galaxy. The only reason they don't bother with some worlds is that they have the ability to do so at their own convenience, should those worlds eventually have something that they want enough to make it worth their while to come in and get it. How that relates to the UN in any meaningful way is still beyond me. | |} ---- I'll try to be more clear about the relationship. the goal is definitly to impose will. Both in the U.N.'s case and the Dominions. There are a couple ways to go about it. 1. Conquer any and all peoples as was implied to be the goal. Which I showed to be inaccurate. 2. Have key figures be a part of your cool kid table. Key figures that hold something of value that allows you to put pressure on other non-members to encourage compliance. As is the U.N.'s strategy. Edited January 5, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- ---- Whats wrong with having fluffy psychotic gerbils AND space lizard orcs? :P | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, I'm gonna have to contest the "interesting and good looking races of the game" claim. Lots of people like draken and chua and mechari! I know, I'm one of them :) | |} ---- Yeah, sorry, not buying into this at all. Individuals may ultimately commit moral atrocities or not, but societies have policies that prohibit, discourage, allow, encourage, or require those actions. A society has no responsibility for moral atrocities that individuals within it perform in direct violation of actively enforced laws and customs--it bears great responsibility for moral atrocities that individuals within it must perform or face punishment. The Dominion has a large series of policies and doctrines that carefully enshrine and protect the rights of some individual citizens to openly victimize other citizens who are deemed less valuable. It doesn't get a free pass for that no matter how clean the streets are. And Ildur has it right--the reason why the Exiles figure so prominently into the promotional materials is that most of us have no trouble recognizing that reality. Carbine really can't pitch for the Dominion without acknowledging along the way that they're inviting you to enjoy playing the darker shade of grey--and if they do that, many of the pro-Dominion players will throw a fit. I'd be more sympathetic to their quandry on that one if they weren't openly encouraging it. As it is, they're getting exactly what they're asking for. | |} ---- If you are going to throw a tantrum every time someone questions your opinions (not thoughts, mind, because you didn't provide them until actively challenged to do so) then, no, you really shouldn't express them. It's bad for you. I like the Dominion races better, too (except the Mechari, who could use better faces and less silly animations). The problem is that the number of peoplewho like the Aurin (people with animal features), the Mordesh (who are cool undead elves) and the Granok (who are orcs made of stone) outnumber us quite a bit. And for the 'more interesting' bit, I say that because the Exile races also have more interesting and developed backstory than any of the Dominion members, except probably for the Cassian (who, depending on how you look at them, are actually an extension of backstory for the Exiles). Edited January 6, 2016 by Ildur | |} ---- ---- ---- Modern western society also kills prisoners trying to escape. Those guards with guns in the watch towers are there for a reason. There really doesn't need to be any argument beyond "because the devs said so". It's their creation. they make the rules. Your rule seems to be that if it isn't "benevolent" then it is evil but only if the dominion does it. As you said, you have a right to your own opinion but nobody has any reason to take it seriously when it contradicts the devs explicit words. The double standard really does make it difficult to have enjoyable lore discussions. I would like to examine how the Dominions actions (both positive and negative) have a larger impact than the Exiles because they are a larger organization. When we see the Exiles similar actions have a smaller impact. Simply because of the size of the organization. It would satisfy the larger faults (and benefits) of the Dominion while demonstrating that the Exiles really have a similar nature. But it seems that any positive word about the Dominion can't be accepted and any negative word about the Exiles can't be acknowleged. Edited January 7, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- Anybody who can look at things objectively should be able to agree that the Exiles do some really horrific things that really aren't OK. I'm pretty sure you'll find that I've acknowledged this several times, as have many of the other people who have concluded that the Exiles are a lighter shade of grey than the Dominion. So if the question you want to discuss is "do both sides do bad things?" I think the answer is yes. Both sides do bad things. But usually, the question people want to discuss is "which side is better and which side is worse?" So it's usually about which side does more, worse things for less justifiable reasons. I don't see how that's a shift in the goalposts at all. Alternatively, the premise that all large societies behave in fundamentally similar ways is so obviously false at the outset that there's simply not much reason to bother with the discussion at all. | |} ---- Lol just mention Aurin player population and he'll show what kind of person he really is. Anyway regardless of how the dominion is suppose to be in terms of morality, the fact is that they are never really portrayed any way BUT evil in the advertising. Look at the F2P trailer, the Dominion are barely in it, and when they are, they clearly seem to be the villains. It just seems like carbine doesn't care enough to really show the different layers of the dominion, so everyone immediately gets the impression that they are pure evil. And are we really evil? Perhaps, but there's more to it. The fact is that that is not the impression that people get when they first see the Dominion. Edited January 7, 2016 by Mental Surge | |} ---- This is the problem. When certain posters only ever want to discuss that. Even when others have no intention of discussing it. So they work real hard to impose that agenda. Take Sylqt's post #59 for example. Nothing in it to indicate a desire to discuss which side is better and which side is worse. But we see how that played out. You've acknowleged "individuals who are so insistent that the Dominion and the Exiles are moral equivalents". So. it isn't so much that people usually want to discuss who is better and who is worse. It's that only a few people usually want to discuss it. And are very insistant about it. Even with posters who don't want to discuss it. And some posters refuse to give any credit to the other faction that isn't their chosen. Which is where double standards usually crop up. You, as a poster, can acknowlege grey areas. We need more of that. Some die hard posters can only see the overly simplistic view of "good" and "bad". We need less of that. Where was that premise ever made? *boggle* Edited January 7, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- ---- Yeah, this thread totally isn't a comparison of the Exiles and the Dominion. :rolleyes: | |} ---- You mean this post? | |} ---- Most reasonable people would admit that the Dominion would be considered more "evil" than the Exiles. At the very least, because on the scale the Dominion does things. Bringing this up is like repeatedly saying "the sky is blue" over and over and over. This part is interesting, because one of the arguments I would like to use is that one of the things that makes the Dominion more evil is simply the population difference. When Exiles do something, it's on a smaller scale and affects less people and would therefore be considered less evil. I know these two examples aren't equivalent but it's like comparing the Exiles spreading the plague in Auroria vs ravaging of Arboria. (If someone can think of 2 events that are more equivalent, feel free to bring it up). Exiles might not behave in the exact same way as the Dominion if they had more resources and population, but some stuff in Loremageddon I read lead me to believe they would commit acts that might be considered equivalent. And on that note, Loremageddon makes me sad overall because it was the perfect opportunity to add more grey without changing the game itself but I feel like it mostly served to communicate that the Dominion is bad while the Exiles are good. | |} ---- Let's face it. None of our words hold any authority over morality because morality is subjective. But they are the gods of their created universe. Our opinion doesn't supercede theirs in their universe. No matter how much you or I may want it to. Their word takes precedence over what we see much the same way game scale =/= lore. Their word on lore supercedes the game scale we see. I agree with your last paragraph. Hern Co has stated what their intention is. So I don't think that everything needs to be exactly equal to achieve a story that is about "what's best for the universe from sides that aren't inherently evil or good". Both of these societies are run and operated by fallible beings. If it seems about "good" vs "bad", the devs can portay is more equally but ultimately, it is up to us to acjnowlege the lore. Stated lore is also lore. The negative aspects of Exile society are in game. They are there to acknowledge. The devs can advertise them more but the writing is there. No, I mean this post. This entire post: Edited January 7, 2016 by Bytek | |} ----